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Which scoring method do you prefer?
A = 5 pts 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
A = 4pts 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 0
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 Post subject: IPSC target scoring
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:08 pm 
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We use the above targets for all paper target engagements. We score them the following way (in points)

A+ = 8 (eye socket A)
A = 5
B = 4
C = 3
D = 2

We also count the thin A rectangle in the head as a A+ which is instant neutralization.


Knob Creek scores them as
A = 4
B = 3
C = 2
D = 1


Both require a point count of 8pts to be neutral but as you can see the KCR scoring is harder since an A+B = 7. Which method scoring do you prefer?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:45 pm 
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If you are running under IPSC rules (Comstock scoring) then you should stick with standard IPSC scoring (5, 4/3, 2/1). This will allow you to use the standard IPSC/USPSA scoring software package, which is important as the data entry workload is greater. Its up to you (or any new IPSC rule book) as to whether you differentiate between Major and Minor power factor.

If you are running under IMGA rules, then the points on the target are irrelevant; the target simply has to be "neutralized" with either a single A or B hit, or two hits anywhere. I like this as scoring and data entry are both very easy and fast.

I'm not clear why you would score the "upper A zone" higher... in my experience, hits here are usually a pure fluke due to the gun climbing in recoil - why would you reward this ? Like with the rulebooks generally, I am dubious about the benefits of local variation in scoring policy... why on earth would people want to add more confusion ???


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:54 pm 
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StealthyBlagga wrote:
I'm not clear why you would score the "upper A zone" higher... in my experience, hits here are usually a pure fluke due to the gun climbing in recoil - why would you reward this ? Like with the rulebooks generally, I am dubious about the benefits of local variation in scoring policy... why on earth would people want to add more confusion ???



The upper A zone is the eye socket area of the head. In tactical terms I believe this is the zone most precision rifle guys aim for since a hit there insures almost immediate debilitation. We score it differently because someone with the skill to consistently hit that small area deserves the satisfaction of one hit neutralizations. Many experience shooters aim for and hit the A+ intentionally and consistently during competition. If you can nail the A+ in a single shot then there is no reason to put a double or triple elsewhere.

This also allows for those shooters with slower firing guns to focus on accuracy when in a CQB environment. A Mini Uzi can put 3-4 rounds into center mass in the time a sterling can shoot one.


We use the A=5 scoring here and although I was done in by KCR's use of the A=4 at the last knob creek match I actually like it. It forces 2 hits to the A zone to be neutral which forces shooters to have a higher degree of accuracy and muzzle control while bursting. I lost several places at the last KCR for getting a failure to neutralize for an A+B = 7. I could have and should have put a third round on for good measure but didn't.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:10 pm 
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IMGA rules do basically the same thing, except that the whole of the head (A or B zone) will "neutralize" the target. Your "A+" scoring places a higher premium on accuracy, but in a subgun match or a gunfight I'm not sure I would rely on such hits.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:23 pm 
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StealthyBlagga wrote:
IMGA rules do basically the same thing, except that the whole of the head (A or B zone) will "neutralize" the target. Your "A+" scoring places a higher premium on accuracy, but in a subgun match or a gunfight I'm not sure I would rely on such hits.


The head as a target A or B is a pretty big target even out at 25+ yards. You might not take those shots personally but many shooters do. Sometimes it pays off and sometimes they end up having to do a followup shot but nothing ventured nothing gained or sometimes they under neutralize the targets as a result of a single B in the head.

There is a difference in the mind set of a person who is looking to get optimal time and a person who is looking to get optimal result. In my opinion the better shooter is a person who gets the optimal result with the best time. If you shoot double or triple shots on the body and the other guy does single head shots in the A+ and your times are tied for that stage who is more skilled?

In some stages you are forced to take those shots. If the designer put some of the shoot targets behind hard cover and only the head or a fraction of the head is exposed then you have to make those shots sucessfully or you are going to rack up the penalties.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:04 pm 
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StealthyBlagga wrote:
Your "A+" scoring places a higher premium on accuracy, but in a subgun match or a gunfight I'm not sure I would rely on such hits.


My first post on a new board.
Nice job Todd. Anyway..............

Accuracy is the name of the game, whether in real life combat or in a "plain ole gun match". I have seen documentation that bullits that hit on the side or on top of the head glance off. We have several operators that actually shoot in our competitions and as we all know you fight as you train and you train as you fight. Its not all "just a game", there are some who treat the match as their good quality training. Yes, we shoot a game, but the skills remain the same. This orbital eye section does not make it confusing because if you never went for this shot placement before you won't go for it now. So, you play your game with the hits you always have placed before and others will place their hits were they like. The bottom line is that we would like to accomadate as many well rounded shooters as possible. :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:02 pm 
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L34A1 wrote:
Accuracy is the name of the game


The name of the game is whatever the rules say it is. If the rules place a premium more on accuracy (like in IDPA) then competitive shooters will approach the stage differently than, say, under IMGA rules where speed is more important. I just like the rules to be consistent so I don't find myself in the situation Todd did because the reules were different at Knob Creek than at Palm Bay.

Now, if you really want to debate what is optimum for actual combat - speed versus accuracy versus power - then thats a whole different can of worms that I am ill qualified to comment on. As you say, what I would do is probably quite different from what others would do. Shooting at a real persons eyeballs (with their head probably ducking/bobbing/moving fast) at 25 yards... uhhhhh, I'll stick with COM thanks :mrgreen: .


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:36 pm 
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StealthyBlagga wrote:
L34A1 wrote:
Accuracy is the name of the game


The name of the game is whatever the rules say it is. If the rules place a premium more on accuracy (like in IDPA) then competitive shooters will approach the stage differently than, say, under IMGA rules where speed is more important.


And what will you do if the name of the game changes to survival. Are you going to speed shoot your way out of a situation with a limited number of rounds on your person or are you going to make fast but accurate shots on the targets you aim for?

StealthyBlagga wrote:
I just like the rules to be consistent so I don't find myself in the situation Todd did because the reules were different at Knob Creek than at Palm Bay.


I may not have been clear enough on that previous statement. I knew the A=4 at KCR and due to MY OWN ERROR and over confidence I did myself in. The rules had nothing to do with it, my skill did.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:22 pm 
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todd wrote:
StealthyBlagga wrote:
And what will you do if the name of the game changes to survival. Are you going to speed shoot your way out of a situation with a limited number of rounds on your person or are you going to make fast but accurate shots on the targets you aim for?


Errm, if I even get into a gunfight, about the LAST gun in my gunsafe that I reach for will be a subgun. My limited experience with Practical Subgun competition has made that clear for me.

And, to answer your question, YES, I will speedshoot my way out of trouble. The one skill IPSC competition is good at teaching you is how to put accurate enough hits on the target really fast (NOT fast misses - its an urban myth that you can miss fast enough to win at IPSC).

All of this is just a game, of course, and so the rules of the game determine how I shoot a given CoF.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:11 am 
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In my question I never mentioned a subgun.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:43 am 
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My first post here and many thanks Todd for putting this together! I feel I've got a small advantage over many of you here in that I know most of you, or have at the very least met, shot with, or seen you shoot.

Nice job at Rio S.B., I wish I'd been able to spend more time with you.
Richard told me about your background so your 2nd place finish didn't surprise me. Icer, my fellow Nevadan, was right on your heels in open class and actually won stock division. His IPSC skills have quickly transferred over to subgun shooting. The AZ State Championship was only his 2nd subgun match ever!

I think all of us tend to fall back on what we know, and I see this with your past experience S.B. Subgunnners, actually machinegunners in general are the black sheep of the gun world and always will be. We're shunned by most every group of shooters from deer hunters to silhouette shooters. Fact of life. We're much more of a close knit community than I think you may realize, and to that end, I think we want our own set of rules whether we need them or not. I think a trip to Wickiup next week may be a good learning experience for you. It has nothing to do with matches, but everything to do with the machinegun culture, something I suspect you're missing. I'd wager most of us here are machinegunners first, and match shooters 2nd.

I'm NOT a world class shooter and with age, my reflexes, reaction time, and failing eyesight, I damn sure won't be a force to be reckoned with in the future. I have been fortunate enough to have shot with the group in FL at their New Year's match, and they are very serious about their sport. I shot the Indiana State match in June of this year with SubGunFan, and this was my second year at Mickey's event in AZ. Chilli17's Texas match is still on my short list for this year but time is running out. Of course I shot our local matches each month so I've seen a few different venues.

There's plenty to discuss, but the subject of this thread is "Rules for fair competition". One thing I'd like to see is a standard for penalties and procedurals... at ALL matches nationwide. I managed to collect an impressive amount in AZ plus one procedural. They hurt, but here in Las Vegas they would have been doubled, in FL, they'd have been doubled once more! I'd also like to see a national scoring system assigned to the paper as indicated on the poll. Accuracy should have a place in subgun shooting rather than a prescribed number of hits anywhere on paper. We require two A hits to neutralize, head or center mass. I enjoyed taking A zone head shots in FL and was surprised at how well I did. (Must have been the Sterling!) I also feel that shooting multiple guns should incur time penalties. Any additional runs after your first only serves as practice and subsequent runs should be faster. I've done this and feel I have an unfair advantage over someone who only shots one gun in one class.

Here's one thing I'd really enjoy seeing and something I think may be workable. Everyone that puts on a match set aside one stage a year that's setup to the exact same specs. We'd be able to compare all the shooters times on a nationwide scale.

Thanks for letting me share my thoughts and feel free to disagree.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:19 am 
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VegasSMG wrote:
Here's one thing I'd really enjoy seeing and something I think may be workable. Everyone that puts on a match set aside one stage a year that's setup to the exact same specs. We'd be able to compare all the shooters times on a nationwide scale.


Hello Vegas, We have once a year exactly that, The Club Record Match, a stage set up the same exact way every year, and the record is not held by me but by an aquaintance from many years ago. His gun of choice, The Mp5SD with iron sights. I think what people want in a SMG match is what we already have. I hate to sound like a broken record. Todd and I will work as hard as we need to in order to make this Florida state match the best in the country. Something for all smgs and their operators. Rules must be strict, safety a must and a match that stands by itself, not linked to the other firearm shooting matches. I believe that the SMG stands alone. I'll grab my smg first, not only because it is my favorite but because it is a pistol, a 100+ yd carbine, and a raffica of firepower if needed. My hope is to see the few come together to unite a common SMG standard that WE CAN ALL enjoy all over the country. I too want to travel to other matches :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:41 am 
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L34A1 wrote:
Hello Vegas, I think what people want in a SMG match is what we already have. I hate to sound like a broken record. Todd and I will work as hard as we need to in order to make this Florida state match the best in the country. Something for all smgs and their operators. Rules must be strict, safety a must and a match that stands by itself, not linked to the other firearm shooting matches. My hope is to see the few come together to unite a common SMG standard that WE CAN ALL enjoy all over the country. I too want to travel to other matches :wink:
I agree! You have what people want but they just don't know it. I've told many people that based on having spent a weekend with the FL crew when they made the trip to Las Vegas for the 2nd annual Uzi Talk shoot and match, and personally attending one of your matches at Palm Bay, that you guys have your stuff together! No disrespect to any other matches, directors, or events around the country.... Yours is by far the best event I've attended on several different levels. You guys work it hard and it shows. I hope family circumstances permit me to attend next year's Invitational. Other wise, I'll see you guys at some point during the next year.

Have a good Creek!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:12 pm 
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todd wrote:
In my question I never mentioned a subgun.


OK - sorry for the confusion. Let me rephrase my statement: IF I had to go into a gunfight, and IF I had a choice of which gun to use, I would not choose a subgun. I state this not because it is relevant to this discussion, but just for entertainment and education purposes :mrgreen: .


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:26 pm 
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StealthyBlagga wrote:
todd wrote:
In my question I never mentioned a subgun.


OK - sorry for the confusion. Let me rephrase my statement: IF I had to go into a gunfight, and IF I had a choice of which gun to use, I would not choose a subgun. I state this not because it is relevant to this discussion, but just for entertainment and education purposes :mrgreen: .


:twisted:

Great pics Vegas SMG... That was one hell of a nice match, I'm glad we sent you home happy.


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